Why the Greeks Glorified Violence (And We Don’t)

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"I have to study politics and war so that my sons can study mathematics, commerce and agriculture, so their sons can study poetry, painting and music." John Q. Adams. And another line can be added: "and so their sons can disavow it all."

We kind of still glorify violence though. We're just a lot more dishonest about it.

The other thing to bear in mind about ancient v’s modern motivations for war is that formerly there was a definite economic benefit (to the victors) for doing so. They captured territory, livestock, trade, slaves (which was very important) etc. Today there is a far weaker economic case due to integrated/global supply chains and economies.

"It is entirely seemly for the young man to lie mangled by the bronze spear. For in his death, all things appear fair." - Homer

Nietzsche underestimated the speed at which things would change. He was not 200 years ahead, but 100.

Great video as always, but halfway through I can’t help but comment on the Ancient Greek position on war—they both glorified and abhorred it, and that dichotomy/conflict is ever present in the Iliad. And does Achilles not become driven with rage when he sees the illustrated shield? He even says he would rather be a peasant on Earth than king of the underworld…

They glorified warriors, not violence. They raised Athena in high esteem and the greater God of War, while they were ambivalent to Ares, whom was the God of War representing violence.

"War is the father of everything" Heraclitus

The Cretans are among the very few Europeans still not accepting gun laws. I'd say that I'm a rather peaceful man, but you shouldn't be so over-civilized that you become a slave.

Good video, but I disagree with what you said about the Greeks. I think their attitude to violence is just as complex as it is today. There are parts in the Iliad where violence is glorified, like the bit with Achilles shield, but there are also parts in the poem where violence is disapproved of, as when Zeus describes Ares as the most hated of all the gods because of the terrible suffering that war brings. Also, the scenes of violence in the Iliad are so graphic that many have called the Iliad an 'anti-war' poem in consequence. Another example of violence not being glorified in Ancient Greece is in tragic theatre. Violence was never shown on stage and was certainly not celebrated. Oedipus was never shown blinding himself and Medea was never shown murdering her children. Both of those acts occurred 'indoors', that is, off-stage. Many of the audience of ancient Athens had served in the military and had no wish to relive acts of violence outside of war at the theatre. I think that, like us, sometimes the Greeks glorified war, sometimes not. Post-world wars, we view war and violence as terrible and ugly things, but this doesn't stop us from enjoying people being shot, killed, and blown up in movies, books, and video games.

In what world do we not glorify violence? We have the largest military in the world by a wide margin, we have been at war for the last 20 years, we have entire genres of video games and movies dedicated to hyperviolence, we even have special awards and ceremonies for those who die “in service of their nation”. Not to mention the memorials, the political speeches, rapidly militarizing police, more guns per square mile than people, etc, etc, etc. Honestly, reading the Iliad and Odyssey as someone who grew up in the shadow of 9/11, I was struck not by how violent it was but by how familiar that violence was to me- how little has changed in the 3000 odd years since the time it was set. All that’s changed is that we have a few more rules for violence; in 2023, Odysseus would have called the cops on the suitors in his home and let them decide who to spear to the wall.

In parts of the rural Deep South , it's still shameful to call the police, you settle it yourself. It's still expected that you respond to violence/disrespect with violence.

Very good video. Violence has indeed changed from the ancient to the modern, because we have entered the realm of the Titan from the Olympians. Empires and nation states no longer exist (in name only), heroes no longer exist because those require kleos (glory), glory requires poets and poetry, poetry requires memory. We have none of these things. We have the machine and we have forgetting.

Babe wake up weltgeist finallllly posted

It seems to me that the ancient Greeks perceived violence and warfare as a way of life and the nature of all things. And for them it pretty much was.

I believe that war back then, though bad, was different than it is now. Sure being trampled in the mud in a massive clash was different but it gave you a bigger sense of purpose and while being sniped by arrows is a possibility, the true hopelessness as a human in modern war is just... Insane. It feels even more out of the control of a grunt

I guess war has become transposed from the military to the business world in our modern capitalist society, and our urges to conquer and amass have become sublimated within the capitalist system. Anyway there's a Chinese proverb, 商场如战场 shang cang ru zhan chang, which means "the marketplace (business world) is like a battlefield". Though this is not a uniquely Chinese sentiment by any stretch.

They lived in a world inherently more brutal, cruel, impoverished, and underdeveloped than our own; and at the same time simpler, purer, open, and in line with fundamental aspects of human nature we, in modern times, try to cover up. At the end of the day we’re no different than them, we’ve just deluded ourselves into thinking so. Personally, I wouldn’t mind if I was born into a wealthy/upper middle to upper class family in ancient antiquity, Greece or Rome

Lol, we don't glorify violence? Was that meant to be a troll?