Destiny 2 Lore - IT EXISTS! The Winnower is REAL! The Witness' Truth & Creation in Darkness!

Did savathun says “ the Witness is not fully darkness but something that wears it like a cloak, it gives darkness a terrible shape”

THE WINNOWER IS REEEAALLLL

You know, when this whole “Black Fleet” business started, when we knew that the darkness was gonna come back, a faction(?) reached out to a Guardian that walked away from the light. They gave them a gift and the Drifter asked what the Emissary of The Nine wanted in return. “You’re already doing it. Keep playing the game.” I don’t think the “game” is Gambit.

I like how you can see Byf literally stop in his tracks in the gameplay when he hears the word "Winnower" lol

If the gardener is confirmed to be the traveler, the witness claims the guardian and itself are creations of their “gods,” and we are products of the traveler, the most natural explanation is the veil is the winnower

I'd like to think that, because the Winnower cannot say "what shape to carve", it hates what the Witness has done to the universe but is powerless to stop it. The purpose of the Winnower's Final Shape is to minimize the amount of suffering in the universe, something we know the Witness doesn't do because, as Eido discovered, its crusade is driven by hatred. Perhaps the Veil manifesting Strand for us was the Winnower's attempt at stopping its rusty First Knife, and a way to create us as a sharper, Second one?

Two things that stood out to me in the campaign: 1. Our ghost says he hasn't experienced "something of this magnitude" (referencing the full chromatic spectrum we now have: light harmonious with darkness) since he was created. (See Ghost's dialog right after we first meet Cayde) 2. The dissenter in Zavala's vision says that the Witness lies, and they ran from the Gardener. For me this suggests that the Precursors fled from the Traveler fearing the chaos that was developing. They sought a means to bring order and purpose, and found the Veil. The Winnower gifted them the powers of Darkness, seeing both a kindred race that sought the order he does, and a means to draw closer to the end of the game as it has always been before. Perhaps the Winnower told them to return for the Gardener, maybe the Precursors figured it out themselves, but either way they bring the Veil back in an attempt to forcefully take the powers of light and enact their final shape on the universe. The Traveler catches on to what they're doing and flees to prevent this, because this would stop its goal: thwarting gridlock and reaching a different end to the game. I think the Winnower realizes that the Witness is no longer the tool it thought it was, as a frozen universe also stops its goal: the end of the game as it always has been before. Eventually, something changes and the Traveler chooses to make a stand with humanity. I don't think this is because we're something special, but rather because the Winnower and the Gardener have reached an agreement: create ghosts to seek out beings worthy of wielding light and dark to stop the Witness and prevent the game from stalemating. This, or something similar, is the only reason I can think of for Ghost recalling the feeling of Prismatic. Darkness provided the pattern for ghosts, and Light gave them form. Maybe he's just referencing a "similar" type of power, but then why would he mention the spectrum and being harmonious with darkness?

Byf has a huge dog!

I think it's a little more nuanced than the winnower making the witness. I think that the game isn't played by the gods themselves. But instead played by the pieces. I think the game has already begun. Only the universe born in the combat between them is the board. The traveler and veil are Tools that profess nothing. The game is to see if the universe will turn into a final shape or if it will become an endless sprawl of possibility. The witness called itself the first knife because it sees itself as the first to shape the world into the final shape. Anyone who tries to make the final shape would be a "knife" in the hand of the winnower. But as the witness itself said. He wasn't actually ordered by anything. Nobody was swinging that knife. The game is that anyone can be the knife. And anyone can tend the garden. Anyone can choose to pursue anything. And the travelers job is keeping the universe filled with possibility and uplifting the universe to give everything a chance to grow. The witness saw the veil and the traveler and saw a purpose it made for itself. It saw a key and a hole and was the first to want to merge them and pursue a purpose it made for itself. And the traveler had no desire to allow the universe to enter stillness so it fled. It's odd. But I think the gardener and winnower if they do exist they exist as watchers. They play the game by giving the tools to us. But they don't guide us. After all the greatest proof of victory isn't by forcing it. It's by letting the game play out and seeing what the universe chooses for itself. The witness with no orders or guidance needed almost proved the winnower right. And we as the champions of the gardener proved it right. Possibility won over stillness. But the witness is only the first to try. The vex are just as much a threat. And they desire the same order and final shape. In other universes they always win without paracausual power to stop them. It's up to us and all of existence to prove that there is no need for a final shape.

top 10 hardest destiny lines ngl "but the first knife clutched in its hand" ... "they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve" DANG

Byf! you got that ham cannon brother

I thought that line was more metaphorical. Guardians are not gardeners but we are the watering can wielded by the gardener (the traveler). Whatever gives the power of darkness is the Winnower, isn’t that the Veil?

I always assumed the witness was a “champion” of the winnower similar to how we are the travelers chosen. So cool to see this kinda confirmed!

as soon as i heard those voice lines during the raid on contest i knew byf would drop a banger on it

In the Balance of Power lore tab, while Maya Sundaresh is attempting to interact/interface with the Veil, Chioma insists that the Veil is dangerous, which Maya agrees with, asserting that they must treat it like a knife. The text states that "a thought crystallizes" which leads me to believe that the Winnower implanted the thought into her. Its possible we've been unwittingly been doing the Winnowers bidding by using Strand, like a knife

maybe this is why oryx despite all his power never ended up becoming a disciple, although they worked to acomplish the same objective their views where different oryx seeking the final shape that the winnower taught him and the witness seeking their own thus making oryx unfit to be the witness disciple

CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER!!?

The Winnower is like Destiny's One Piece

Byf, I've been with you for so long. I believe since 2016 or 2017 is when I first subbed but I have watched your Destiny vids from all the way to your early days. I started D1 in 2014 when I was 10 and now I'm 20, no longer playing Destiny but I catch myself coming back to you to hear you talk about the lore. Now that it's finally over I can rest. I no longer need to know what's happening. This is my endgame. Byf you have given me so much of my childhood because of your videos. Thank you.

I think once the winnower realized that the witness wanted to achieve a different final shape than its own, it decided to help us toward defeating the witness, and may very well be responsible for us being able to use darkness so well. After all it was the veil that allowed us to learn strand on Neptune. And I think it’s version of the final shape, is going to be us.