No, Your Subway Train isn’t “Too Old”

My first thought here is remembering how Perth decided to get rid of their old trains, and they almost scrapped them... but then agreed to instead sell them off for cheap to Auckland, where they were still perfectly functional vehicles and they became an affordable way to revitalise our train network and save it from closure. They served in Auckland for another 30 years until the last segment of diesel line closed for electrification last year. Some of them have been sold off to Mozambique but I don't know if they've entered service again over there.

In Germany we still use refurbished trams from the 70s and majority of people prefer the look and seating of those Edit: Subway trains too and the trams are high floor but so are most platforms on the lines they operate on so they have level boarding

X: "This train is 30 years old! It's ancient!" Buenos Aires: "Hold my 1913-stock that ran until 2013. 30?! That's brand new!"

The Bakerloo Line has entered the chat

There’s a fascinating story about trams in Switzerland which were being replaced but were so well maintained that they were usable for many more years, so rather than scrap them, many were donated to a city in Ukraine. Many years before the war. They were so beloved that the city that the transportation modes for the entire city use the old trams color scheme and even the stylish ads were kept

At the other end of the scale, the Glasgow Subway is only on its third generation of rolling stock since it opened in 1896. The original sets were updated and kept in use until 1977, when they were replaced with new GEC trains. These are only now being replaced with the new walk-through driverless trains.

In our town in Germany, we still have trains from 1967 in regular service, and there is still a train from 1928 that is used for special occasions and still runs just fine.

An extreme example of the longevity of trains is argueably the S-Bahn in Berlin, as they used trains called "Stadtbahner" until 1996. Those trains were built in the 1920s and 1930s and were thereby around 70 years old when they were retired. The trains were obviously modified multiple times during their service life.

I remember as a child riding on the old red TTC 1950's subway trains. The lights would always flicker out for a second in the middle of the tunnel which was spooky. Like a ghost train.

FINALLY someone addressing this "new trains will solve all our problems mania"

A typical metro trainset is designed to last up to 40 years on average (not counting refurbishments and improvements). In Paris, the remaining MF67 stocks are about 50 yo and the last ones will be pushed out at at least 60. On Line 11, the last MP59s are about 60 years old. Their last refurbishement dated from the 90s, about 30 years ago.

Great video! The TTC definitely risks overplaying that every capital project is essential, meaning that nothing is. However, one of the things I think you didn't cover is the lead time between "we have funding to order new trains" and "we've ordered new trains" and "we have new trains!". It's probably >5 years, maybe closer to ten given Ontario's slow and expensive procurement process. So if a train should be replaced by year 35/40, you need the funding secured by at the latest year 30. So I think the procurement for replacement T1s can only really be delayed by another couple of years before it becomes a problem in 10 years.

We’re currently having this problem in Dublin. They want to replace 20 year old trams that were expected to last 30 years. They asked public transport operators in Boston and Melbourne what they would do and apparently the advice was get new ones. I don’t think they asked the right people, but no one seems to be pointing out the problem with replacing them early. The DART trains for instance have been operating since 1984. They probably need another upgrade but they’re fine.

Montreal still runs the MR-73s on the Blue, Yellow and, to a lesser extent, the green line. I like the new stock, but I also enjoy the retro look (and ride) of the older cars.

30 Year Old Subway Trains eh? Between 2000 and 2020, we imported a lot of used trains from Japan and by the time they're used in our commuter system, they're already 30 - 40 years old. There's the Toei 6000 Series, JR 103 Series, Tokyu 8000 & 8500 Series, Tokyo Metro 5000 Series, Toyo Rapid 1000 Series, Tokyo Metro 7000 Series, Tokyo Metro 05 Series, Tokyo Metro 6000 Series, JR 203 Series and lastly JR 205 Series

Sydneys V Sets are a great example of an older train loved by its users. They were built in the 1970s and still going strong. The refurbishment kept the trains feeling fresh too

All of the current Melbourne Metro trains run fairly often through my local station - by far my favourite are the refurbished versions of the very oldest trains they run. They have amazing aircon in the summer, they have the same really good wayfinding signs as the brand new HCMT sets, and the seating is a good balance between density and comfort. The tram refurbishment program has also been amazing value, 500k per tram versus ~15m for a new one, and they are a huge improvement over the unrefurbished ones, but I hope this is the last time they need to extend the life of inaccessible trams before the network is fully upgraded to step free access and trams.

I agree. What is important is proper maintenance of equipment & infrastructure, which is mundane compared to shiny new trains, but is what we need for punctual operation. We too in Japan have various old trains running around. They are required to run at ~110km/h and with 2~3 min frequencies during rush hour (aggressive acceleration & deceleration), but many companies still operate 30, 40 and even 50 years old trains, transporting millions every day (7~10 car sets). Especially in Osaka, several companies run 50 year old commuter trains built in the 60s. You can hear the distinctive roaring of the motor, trying to stick to the timetable, but the interior is kept clean and comfortable. With proper maintenance and upgrades to equipment, as well as periodical refurbishing of interiors, trains can be kept in operation for a very long time, while being reliable and comfortable for passengers.

That's the cool thing about train cars: They're boxes on wheels that you can furbish in infinite different ways. Other than metal fatigue there's hardly ever a good reason for a full replacement.

We in New York are MASTERS at rebuilding subway cars and giving them extended lives. Recently retired in early 2022 the famed R32 “Brightliners” served billions of passengers for nearly 60 years. Hell, when the R179’s had their teething problems the MTA dusted a couple of the R32’s off and put them back in service. That’s how good they were.